In my opinion, the whole halaal gelatine issue is a sad reflection of how divided we are as Muslims. At the moment, there are 3 major Halaal "authorities" in South Africa, SANHA, MJC and NIHT.
SANHA approves only gelatine derived from Halaal animals as Halaal, while the other two certify gelatine derived from haraam animals as halaal. The reason given by MJC is that the gelatine undergoes significant change from its original state (bones) to make it irreversible.
My opinion is that this reason is dodgy and I seem to be in the minority on this one.
I have one question that no one at MJC / NIHT seem to have been asked. Why don't they then certify gelatine derived from Pigs as halaal? Surely it undergoes the same process? Is there a difference between consuming a haraam cow and a pig? The hadith used to justify "significantly metamorphosed animals" mentions a donkey that dissolved into a salt-pan. Would NIHT/MJC certify gelatine derived from donkies halaal? (ok, that was more than one question)
Sounds dodgey to me.
16 comments:
Do you have any facts / links to back up what you're saying (gelatine derived from haraam animals)? I really don't think any halaal certifying body will mislead the ummah in that manner, it is a huge sin. How can anyone live with that?
What I do know is that Sanha is in it for the money.
Yes, see here: http://www.halaal.org.za/getArticle.php?id=11 (NIHT website). If you extract the important bits from the waffle, they're explaining why they think Gelatine from haraam animals is halaal. Most of SA's gelatine, including that in Beacon products, is from Davis gelatine. They use animals not slaughtered the halaal way. (http://www.vocfm.co.za/public/articles.php?Articleid=27988)
The MJC also had a similar page, with the same explanation but the halaal pages on their site seem broken now?
My thoughts exactly regarding the misleading, which is why I'm surprised this hasn't been resolved after so many years.
As for SANHA being in it for the money, I fear that money/consumerism might be the reason why the others have certified gelatine derived from haraam animals as halaal.
I just thought that its important that we as muslims understand what it is we are eating regardless of whose stamp is on the product.
Allah knows best.
Do ICSA still exist..
This is a very touchy issue apparently.. Esp wit the whole metamorphosis issue..
I always maintain.. When in doubt.. Abstain !!!
Slmz brother..nyc blog,.however,as a muslim,u being foolish 2 make a comment regarding swine gelatine..if that was the case,then wearing leather goods of cattle etc. that are not halaal would be not allowed..we are strictly prohibited 2 use ,let alone eat pig product..jazakullah,keep the gud syd goin
thanks bro!
as for the swine comment, I'm of the opinion that when something is deemed haraam, then there are no grey areas, just a black line that one crosses. I.e. Eating a haraam chicken is as bad as eating pork. Ofcourse I may be wrong and if so, let me know with some supporting hadith perhaps?
Swine aside, how about donkey gelatine?
I understand,but in this case we not eating the animals flesh,but parts like hoovs and hair..thus,u can use hair of "haraam" cattle but not of swine,regardless of source..the Niht has a good website explaining this issue better..visit it,and speak 2 them..AND ALLAH IS ALL KNOWING
Slmz again,.sister nafisa,i wouldnt make a comment regarding Sanha like that.HERES WHY.I use 2 share the SAME view like you..until my sister had 2 have her savoury company certified ..thats when i realised,sanha is the most stringent when it comes 2 halaal and contamination..its not merely a quick form u fill in and u done..its a quite interesting the way they make sure every thing is halaal and do checks.Just wanted 2 let u know after experiencing it 1st hand..and i do eat other "stamped foods" .jazakullah
You bring up another interesting point for me. There seems to be a distinction between halaal to consume and halaal to use. The Hadith NIHT uses regarding tanned leather illustrates my point exactly. Tanning leather of a haraam animal makes it halaal to use. I doubt anyone will enjoy eating a piece of leather? And so this Hadith cannot be applied to something which is edible?
Also, its not only hooves and hair, in fact its mostly bones that they use to make gelatine.
p.s. I also eat food certified by NIHT/MJC, except if it contains gelatine.
I think We need the help of ulama who are not bious.perhaps setting a meeting with the halaal stamp people on this issue .But,a public attended one.
Good idea. If they can't come to an agreement, at least the people witnessing will have both sides of the argument 1st hand and not via 3rd parties.
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim,
According to latest research, bovine and porcine gelatin ate not molecularly identical. Porcine gelatin does not still lose its pork characther after going through all those processes.
Related article:
http://sourcedb.cas.cn/sourcedb_ipe_cas/zw/lwlb/200909/P020090909609485798189.pdf
Slmz,
Once again, I wish I'd done biology at school ;)
Anyway, my understanding from reading the abstract and sifting through the paper, is that it is possible to identify the source (Porcine or Bovine) of the Gelatin based on marker peptides.
I'm not sure how this relates to my argument though? Yes, of-course they will be different, the originate from different animals. And its great that we can differentiate between them, but unfortunately, we can't differentiate through any analysis, which of these animals were slaughtered in a halaal manner. For this we need to establish a chain of trust, Muslim to Muslim, back to the slaughterer.
Also, if these "marker peptides" remain, then is this "a complete metamorphic change"? Not sure I want to enter into that debate either, because complex things like that can usually be argued either way.
Thanks for the paper though, very interesting.
Yusuf
In order to express myself better:
Porcine derived gelatine is a topic of discussion among the Muslim
community. Should it be considered as halal or haram?
Until now, there has not been an agreement on a single view. Basically
there are 3 main different opinions:
1) Gelatin is only halal if the source animal is halal and also slaughtered
in the Islamic way.
2) Gelatin is only halal if the source animal is halal and slaughter method
is not a factor.
3) Gelatin is always halal no matter the source animal is halal or not.
First view is of course the most conservative one and can be obviously
defended by stating some Islamic rules. I don't find the second view
meaningful because it can be falsified even by the contradiction within
itself. Third view was introduced by the support of some scientific
arguments in relation to various hadiths.
According to Islam, when something changes its composition until it can
not be related to its source, it is considered as a completely different
material. This is called istihala. A good example would be animal carcass.
Carcass is considered unclean, but if it is burned and becomes ashes, or
decompose and becomes earth, then it is considered clean. This can
happen even with feces. It is very logical if we take in to consideration
that every material on earth is always going through recycling and used
again by a completely different being. [1]
So, can we actually say that porcine derived gelatin is halal since it goes
through chemical changes until it loses its swine characteristics
completely? Well I mentioned this question because it is the basis behind
the 3rd view. But in fact the question itself is scientifically incorrect.
I made a research on this subject and found out that the fact is not like
the question states it. If the assumption, "the porcine gelatin goes
through enough chemical changes until it loses its swine character
completely" was true , we should not be able to differentiate porcine
derived gelatin molecule from others. The truth is we can. [2]
Gelatin is not molecularly same material whether it is derived from porcine
or bovine. Recent studies have proven that the porcine derived gelatin can
still be identified by its source. Contrary to popular belief, it can now be
detected even in a mixture of bovine and porcine derived gelatin. [3]
In summary, we can say that the argument behind the view which defends
porcine gelatin may be halal is not valid. Therefor, it is still a necessity for
the halal seekers not to consume porcine derived gelatin.
(Allah knows better.)
Emre Metin
References:
1. Bazmool M. The Fiqh Principle of Istihala – Changing from impure to pure,
(translated by Moosa Richardson and a fatwa given by Shaykh al-Albaani)
2. Venien, A., & Levieux, D. Differentiation of bovine from porcine gelatins
using polyclonal anti-peptide antibodies in indirect and competitive indirect
ELISA. Journal of Pharmaceutical and Biomedical Analysis, 2005;39:418–424.
3. Zhang G, Liu T, Wang Q, Chen L, Lei J, Luo J, Ma G, Su Z. Mass spectrometric
detection of marker peptides in tryptic digests of gelatin: A new method to
differentiate between bovine and porcine gelatin Food Hydrocolloids,
2009;23:2001-2007
JazaakAllah for the post and the explanation below.
I agree with your classification of the different views. I think the key is in your statement: "According to Islam, when something changes its composition until it can not be related to its source, it is considered as a completely different material."
The paper you referenced, informs me that both Porcine and Bovine Gelatin contain peptide markers that relate them to their source. Hence, there is no istihala in the gelatin manufacturing process?
[...] This post is a follow on from here. [...]
JazaakAllah bro Muhammed for the comprehensive comment. Do you work for Zamha? If so, may I embed the .pdf http://www.zamha.com/announce/halaal%20articles/Gelatin.pdf somewhere on my blog?
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